Tuesday, July 8, 2008

What is 4x5n?

"Yes, however, it is impossible to traverse an infinite period of time." -Matthew
Oh really?

It seems like all your hypothesis haven't been demonstrated yet. You say it is impossible. How do you know? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt when I suggested that matter has some beginning. I personally don't believe it did.

Let's go through this little mind experiment of yours nevertheless. Assume it had a beginning as you suggest. What does that prove? That matter can be created. That would not be an unusual hypothesis to assume, given how little we know about the universe. Consider that matter/antimatter particles pop in and out of existence in vacuums (see CP violations). I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, even though you haven't shown anything to be true, you just make pronouncements and expect others to assume you are correct.

You admit that none of this has anything to do with God, just something "supernatural." What does that give us? What is this "supernatural" thing? What is it made of (I would say a giant string per string theory but that's neither here nor there)? More importantly, since we are talking about the origin of things, what is ITS origin? Since you say that nothing can be eternal in the direction of the past (not proven), than this supernatural force must have an origin as well, am I wrong? So tell me, where does God (or since you just call it "supernatural," why don't we allow for Allah as well) come from? Or is this force exempt from the same rules you expect me to play by?

God is independent of time. Ok, I can make up stuff to; so is matter at the quantum level. That circumnavigates your dilemma. Infinity is a product of our mind, OK so is God, since he is infinite.

The truth of the matter is, this is just a complex argumentum ad ignorantium, you know, an argument from ignorance. You don't know everything about quantum mechanics, so "Godditit."

Let me ask you a simple question;

What is 4x5n?

If you answered 42, you may need to look again. You see, "n" is unknown. N could be {5, 2, 20, 30, 2.57693 etc. etc.}

(Off topic...I love the part of A Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy where the supercomputer says "42".)

You can't make up answers to things that are unknown, likewise, saying "Goddidit" is a non answer, extraneous. Simply because you don't know how matter was created, doesn't give you license to insert your personal deity, the old God-of-the-gaps tactic.

I'm sure you have 10/\100 of these argumentum ad ignorantium questions. They make really good crowd pleasers, but unfortunately for your God, it doesn't show that he exists.

Oh, and here's one more for you, since you say it was God (lets quit beating around the bush), how do you plan to prove this empirically? A Nobel Prize is waiting in the future for you Matthew. The brightest minds are still unable to prove the things you claim to KNOW. Einstein and Hawking said things without proof. You can succeed where they failed. So WOW me with your physics acumen.

6 comments:

Matthew said...

No one has ever witnessed matter come to exist from "nothing" in the truest sense of the word. You mentioned matter popping into existence in vacuums. Two points can and should be made here: 1. To my knowledge this has not actually been OBSERVED, and 2. You've only provided half the information - the matter is coming from ENERGY, not NOTHING, thus even if this had been observed, it would not violate thermodynamics.

Now you are suggesting something which has never been observed and saying "it might be possible, therefore it's true" - it is you who is arguing from ignorance.

"Oh, and here's one more for you, since you say it was God (lets quit beating around the bush), how do you plan to prove this empirically?"

We're not beating around the bush. There are two topics in this debate: Christianity and naturalism. I was discussing naturalism, and now you're changing the subject. It's not against the rules for me to disprove one theory without offering an alternative, is it?

"You say it is impossible. How do you know?"

Mathematics isn't evidence now? The only way around this dilemma is to suggest that time does not travel at a constant speed, which has also never been observed - and probably never could be, another argument from ignorance.

Matthew said...

"Off topic...I love the part of A Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy where the supercomputer says "42"."

I'm afraid I never read/saw it, is it good?

MudSkipper said...

We don't know where energy came from, so Goddidit, right?

That is like saying the answer to 4x5n is "42"
It does not follow.

"it might be possible, therefore it's true' - it is you who is arguing from ignorance."
I said it might be possible, therefor, I don't know, not "Its True."

It's really easy to go outside my realm of knowledge on this subject.
It's possible, therefore we should investigate further and not say, for the moment, that the god of the bible did it.
Lets try to avoid non-sequiturs shall we.

MudSkipper said...

I might as well be arguing with Muslim on this topic, they would use the same arguments. Funny.

MudSkipper said...

That is the problem.

All this is fine and dandy, but you need to start making connections to your own deity here, or you are gonna lose me.

Matthew said...

Ok, Steve, but judging from your last comment on my blog I've already lost you. Although I did find it amusing that the gist of your explanation was: You're starting to sound like Ray, therefore I won't talk to you. Yet you still talk to Ray. ;-)

Perhaps I got busy and let Ray post for me?

"All this is fine and dandy, but you need to start making connections to your own deity here, or you are gonna lose me."

Honestly, I'm not a fan of these conversations, anyway. Intellectual sparring isn't what brought me to my once-proud knees before the God who created me, which is why I haven't been trying as hard as I should - these conversations always end with agnostic conclusions anyway (which is why I'm not a particularly large fan of guys like Lee Strobel). Of course you won't believe in God until you've met Him, and you (probably) won't meet Him until you've earnestly sought after Him. We both know what happens next: I continue to pray for you, and you continue to laugh histerically and roll your eyes at the thought of me spending hours on end talking to someone who you think isn't there. Oh well, I've read the last chapter and Jesus wins.